Ever hear that SOME glaciers are GROWING, on the shady sides of mountains. And that EASTERN antarctic ice is THICKER by hundreds of feet.

You realise you’ve just said that you don’t consider vandalism a problem.

As to my interpretation, you did say “GP could of damaged the boats engines and I still would not define this as violence. Even Ghandi was not opposed to destroying private property (as opposed to personal property). Infact, he refused to condem the blowing up of train carridges full of British ammunition.” I think the jump I made wasn’t too great (and i did say it seemed you were saying that), nonetheless if you’re not saying that fair enough.

I would also like you to explain, in some detail, the difference between private and personal property in your mind.

Personal property, by my understanding, are objects (tangible and intangible) owned by an individual. Private property is any property that is not public property (property that is controlled by a state or by a whole community). Private property can be controlled by individual or by a group of individuals collectively. This in my mind makes private property the personal property of the controlling individual[s]. Am I wrong here?

While you’re at it why not define what you mean by fear and suffering. Destroying some one’s research (especially after they have spend a considerable amount of time and effort on it) might cause them suffering eh?

I have never denied the strength of state or, indeed, multi-nationals media machines. I am not, however, talking about them.

The most important thing about any action, legal or otherwise is CONTEXT.

I’m not trying to preach any moral high ground, but I don’t consider damaging private property, unless its being used to inflict fear or suffering, as violence. Just as I don’t believe owning private property (as opposed to personal property) to be a natural born right.

However, I do agree that GP should be critiqued, constructively. Having said that, they can’t be blamed for the numbers of police who turned up! Be critical of this. If you think that GP has a strong media machine, its nothing compared to that of the state.

I’m not here to “piss people off”, merely to raise my concerns about actions taken. As I have repeatedly said, I support GP generally, but I am concerned about who some GP actions contradict is core values, and, indeed, hurt the movement. I won’t let this go because I care. Again, I’m not into blindly following the pack.

The thing I have found so sad about this debate is the fact the few people have actually engaged with my concerns, but rather have choosen to launch numerous personal attacks on me - accussing me of all manner of things (ranting, being a right-winger etc etc). Other have, in numerous ways, told me to shut up or go away. It seems many simply want the blog to be a back-patting forum and will not tolerate anybody who dares to step out of line. Not cool, not cool at all. Indeed, these reactions, as I have observed before, go against GP’s stated aim of have informed debate. Indeed, informed debate is all I ask for from other members of the community. It’s not really that much of an ask. Goodness, I am willing to be convinced my position is faulty. However, in order for that to happen we’re going to have to talk about the issues.

I will give credit where credit is due. The fact that the admins have allowed me to post my concerns - which have questioned the position of the organisation they work for and believe in - indicates that they are willing to allow debate. And, with out trying to sound like too much of a sycophant, I am grateful for their tolerance (and, indeed, adherance to GP stated values).

I would also like to admit that I was guilty of over stepping the mark with my “TV whoring” comment, and for that I apologise to other blog readers and the admin. It was an ill choosen phrase written in a hurry and I sincerely regret using it. That said, I will not apologise for being concerned about the tactics being employed by GP as I believe some of them do more hurt than good.

Julz, I don’t think you can draw a direct parallel between what is happening in Tibet and the protest last week. That, however, is a debate for somewhere else.

Hi everyone - thank you for commenting here on the Greenpeace NZ blog - it’s great to see some debate occurring. This post in particular has elicited some rather heated discussion! This is good but, while we welcome constructive criticism and discussion, we do not want to see personal attacks please.

Please keep it civil.

1) Don’t use information that is questionable (check up about the Finnish Tree/Brent Spar etc). In this case it didn’t happen but GP has been guilty of such media spin in the past and it has bitten them in the arse.

2) Educate: The RW can still protest and educate the population without the drama. Look at the numbers of people that - according to GP - visit the boat. That is an audience. Run educational tours, give lectures, handout flyers, media releases (the media will jump on “Doom” news quite happily)…god the list is endless.

3) Protests can be made without the dramatic TV whoring acts of last week. One of the most effective I have seen is a quite sit-in in Vancouver, B.C. It got a lot of media coverage AND it didn’t break any laws.

I could go on.

I wonder, now I have (started) to answer your question, prehaps you might engage with my concerns?

If you know GP more than you think, then why do persist that what happened a week ago now, such a complete waste of time?? Your comments are contradicting something that you say you’re “doing something” about. If you say you’re helping the environment in your own way then GOOD for you!! So why not Let it GO!! Unfortunately GP will pay a hefty price for something that they are passionate about anyway, if you’ve been watching the news or reading the paper’s, you will see that they are in strife for something that was just a MESSAGE for the media to pounce on and spread the word really. That what’s media good for, even though it backfires. Unfortunately for them it has and they are being punished for it. So stop chasing your tail and go find some other news blog to rant and rave on and let Greenpeace be.. Your not going to make any difference at how GP act around here, except piss supporters off! I’ve always thought, if you love something with a passion you will do ANYTHING for it!! And if that’s risking your life, organisation you will do it. Greenpeace are notorious for being like this. It’s happening in Tibet, those protesters are doing the exact same thing are you going to condemn them as well?? They are making WORLD news with there action’s and other’s out will be supporting them regardless.. So LET IT GO, you’re on a losing streak here..

Lets see an action plan of what you would have done, how you get the msg out to thousands of people and to the pollies, why you are doing it, who are you targetting, why you are trying to stop climate change.

You do seem very passionate about the tactics used and how it shouldnt have been done - so lets hear how you would have done it - particularly without the media spin to help it get out there.

Cheers

Thanks for your concern, but I respectfully suggest that what I do with my free time is my business.

I expect people both to disagree with me and to be passionate. I am passionate about environmental issues, but concern about some of GP’s tactics, that is why I came to the GREENPEACE WEBSITE. I want to discuss my concerns. God, you you really think that I should just blindly offer my support? Is it really a matter of “you’re either with us or aganinst us”? Please don’t say it is so.

I am concern’s with GP’s tactics and increasing media spin (some which have bitten the movement in the backside - a certian tree from Finland comes to mind, as do acts of vandalism, as well as some questionable scientific assertions in the past).

In relation to your conspiracy theory about SE leaning on the police. If strong evidence can be provided that proves this was the case, I’ll be first to condemn the police and SE. Until that time, I am not going to commit myself to joining in anti-establishment rumour mills.

You condemn me as a right winger, call me boring and tell me to take my views somewhere else. Others tell me to STFU. These are hardly the words of people who believe in an organisation whose core values include “seek[ing] solutions for, and promote open, informed debate about society’s environmental choices,” and who develops its “campaign strategies and policies…[with]… great care to reflect…[GP’s]… fundamental respect for democratic principles.” Yes, I know GP better than you think. Indeed, I am far from being a RW, but I guess it is just easier to write me off as a neo-con eh? Then you don’t actually have to engage with my concerns.

Oh, and I’m doing a lot of stuff to help the environment, both at home and at work. Still, I doubt you’re going to believe that. Again, its easier to write me off as a monster polluter eh?